Chinese Women, Asian Women, Online Dating & Things Chinese and Asian
Thread

I miss the old CLM

From: United States Texas Arlington @histguy Time : 2012-07-29 08:15:38
This post will probably get me banned from the site, but I don't care anymore. CLM is not what it used to be. When I first joined the site, it was friendly, there were lots of good HELPFUL articles, and people seemed genuinely interested in finding their life mate.

How things have changed. It appears the blog posts are dominated by a group of creepy expats who have nothing better to do than gripe about Chinese culture, revel in their illicit sexcapades, or babble incoherently like someone going through syphilitic madness.

Whenever I comment on a post (typically anonymously) I am blasted out of the water by offering a contradictory viewpoint. Then people attack me for posting anonymously. This type of behavior hardly fosters constructive communication back and forth. It makes me not want to post my comments at all.

I wish CLM could return to the friendly days, where there was a nice mix of blog posters, male and female...and not just two or three aging white pontiffs handing down their godly knowledge to the rest of us swine.

As a side note, why are some of these guys even on CLM if their true intention is to not find a love match? Why are they here???

P.S. I did not post this anonymously.
Comments to Thread
(Showing 1 to 12 of 12) 1
Anonymous2246
@Anonymous2246 Time : 2012-08-02 21:49:55 #1
why are some of these guys even on CLM if their true intention is to not find a love match? Why are they here???
Anonymous2247
@Anonymous2247 Time : 2012-08-03 05:58:14 #2
How about using the site for what you're supposed to use it for? none of the things you are complaining about are actually related to the online dating aspect. out of the 150 women who have ever contacted me, none of them browse beyond the main online dating website. The only thing that really matters is the quality of the people registering on the site, and there is no change in that regard.
Anonymous2248
@Anonymous2248 Time : 2012-08-03 10:32:34 #3
颇有同感!这句话 也是我想问的:“As a side note, why are some of these guys even on CLM if their true intention is to not find a love match? Why are they here??? ”

From: China 浙江(zhe jiang) 杭州(hang zhou ) @JohnAbbot Time : 2012-08-03 14:09:07 #4
Hi HistGuy - First, I can't think of anybody who has ever been banned from the site for voicing their opinion. People have been banned for Scamming and in a couple of cases for womanizing, but never due to censorship. Since you've been a good member of CLM for a long time, and very clearly are no scammer nor womanizer, you can rest assured that you're very safe from being banned.

Second, I'm struggling a bit on how to respond, because much of my honest response requires going back to many comments you have made on the blogs under cover of anonymity, but I'm clearly not at liberty to disclose those comments as having been yours. So I'm stuck with generalizing a bit and will do that now. I hope in doing so I do not cross any lines as far as my duty to you not to reveal anything specifically said by you while anonymous.

Let's start with the comment made above by another anonymous member that I suggest is right on the mark in suggesting that your comments really are directed at the blogs and not the "site". In fact CLM has, if anything (in my opinion at least) grown more user friendly, more secure and more attentive to member's needs on an ongoing basis and continues to do so. I would also suggest that CLM is becoming recognized by a large number of people and by numerous reviewers as the best International Chinese Dating site there is. And frankly I think we've weeded out a lot of the types who were here for something other than a real long term relationship.

And I might add that, regarding the website, you have displayed, to my knowledge, no evidence of anything but being a complete gentleman and of the utmost good behaviour. We consider you to be an excellent member, and your patronage has been much appreciated, So I'm going to restrict myself to the blogs only.

Here is what you said and my rebuttal or comment in each instance:

1. "I wish CLM could return to the friendly days, where there was a nice mix of blog posters, male and female...and not just two or three aging white pontiffs handing down their godly knowledge to the rest of us swine."

In fact, in the so called "friendly" days when the blogs started, there were only 3 female bloggers and one of them actually was consistently taking serious shots at the male members and wasn't particularly friendly at all. There were 11 men bloggers. Of the first 200 articles I count 34 being by women and 166 by men.

On the other hand now there are basically 5 women and 6 men who are somewhat consistently blogging and of the last 200 blog articles 67 were written by Chinese women which is almost double that of the "good old days". So I'm not sure where the statement you've made is coming from. The blogs have become more and more equally balanced between men and women and will no doubt continue to do so.

2. You said: "It appears the blog posts are dominated by a group of creepy expats who have nothing better to do than gripe about Chinese culture, revel in their illicit sexcapades, or babble incoherently like someone going through syphilitic madness."

I want to ask you if you think that comment demonstrated any hint of "friendliness, helpfulness or constructiveness"? How did that comment "foster constructive communication back and forth"? In fact, it does quite the opposite and can only be characterized as a scathing personal attack on certain bloggers. It does nothing at all productive or constructive, and demands and deserves an angry response. Before you respond I'd honestly appreciate your going back and perusing some of the comments you've made in the blogs in the past anonymously, because I suggest to you that you have made a number of similar attacks on bloggers that were extremely personal and insulting.

The fact is that you have also made some remarkably well thought out and well stated comments in the past that were friendly, helpful and constructive. But the ones like the one above, if anything, have helped bring the blogs to where they are today, so if you find them to be unfriendly, unhelpful and destructive, maybe you have only yourself to blame.

I personally have, on a number of occasions, had to hold my tongue and not respond angrily at some of your personal attacks on specific bloggers, and on one occasion I found your comment so unfounded and uncalled for that I could not hold back my response. Worst of all, when you've been positive and generous with your remarks and comments I've found you to be so incredibly bang on that I envied your ability to see things so clearly, but then shortly after you said something personally damning and so completely without foundation or even understanding of what was being said by the blogger you had attacked, that I could scarcely believe you were the same person.

3. You said: "As a side note, why are some of these guys even on CLM if their true intention is to not find a love match? Why are they here???"

Where did this come from??? Someone who has written 50, 60 or maybe even 90 blog articles writes one that is less than 100% filled with praise of China and Chinese culture and/or Chinese women and you think that gives you license to conclude they are not on CLM because they're seeking a love match? This statement and question is exactly like the old "Have you stopped beating your wife yet" question. You pronounce an unfounded and completely flawed conclusion of fact, and then base your damning question on it.

Of course, as you feared being banned for voicing your opinion, I fear losing a good member of CLM for voicing mine. But let me suggest an alternate conclusion to this debate - instead of standing on the sidelines and tossing out the odd comment, often cloaked in anonymity, why don't you step up to the plate and start blogging yourself. If you think the bloggers have become unfriendly and unhelpful then come forward and show them a better way.

And yes, if you think that is a challenge, you're quite right.
Anonymous2253
@Anonymous2253 Time : 2012-08-03 17:04:41 #5
其实没必要深究,所有的人和事都是你自己内在投射,象面镜子。用最简单的方法解决最复杂问题。大家不外乎都是希望有个更友好和谐的交流,找到自己的幸福。希望CLM更加坚定我们的信念------一定会的,一定能找到!而尽量或不触及负面的人事,这就有个网站管理问题。对于一些负面、消极言论,最好不要放大,能避免就避免。就像硬币有两面,看积极面。正如:
1,正面的人和事就像受到磁铁一样的引力靠近CIM;
2,对于那些负面的试图分散精力的人和事,CLM是一种威慑力量。如果给人可趁之际,就会有些人象这里播撒消极的种子。
坚守自己的立场,不一定总是使用语言对抗,有时它是指不在负面人物身上白费精力。
From: China 浙江(zhe jiang) 杭州(hang zhou ) @JohnAbbot Time : 2012-08-05 05:01:49 #6
Hi Again Histguy - since my last response, much of which I still stand by, I've given a lot of thought to what you have said, and while i disagree still with your presentation, I agree with your bottom line. We all need to strive to be kinder, gentler, friendlier and more helpful and constructive. We are a community here on CLM and ALM, and we need to bring that community spirit back to the blogs and forum.

I for one intend to try to remember that with every blog and every comment. So thank you for the reminder.

I continue to encourage you to start to blog yourself.
From: United States Texas Arlington @histguy Time : 2012-08-05 10:45:46 #7
Hi John,

Thank you for your well thought out answers and criticisms. I have considered what you wrote very carefully.

As you know, I am not the type of person to go around attacking people just for the fun of it. I simply couldn't take it anymore after reading post after post of the same thing....over and over again. I tried giving some of these bloggers the benefit of the doubt, thinking it was a phase they were going through. Maybe they had just hit a rough patch in their life, and would eventually move on from their bitterness. Not the case.

So what I have decided to do is to stop reading certain bloggers' writings altogether. If I see the picture of their face pop up next to a blog, I am closing that and moving on. I will not read one more sentence of their writings. In fact, I wish CLM had a filter feature where you could omit even seeing posts from certain bloggers.

I thought about writing for CLM, but frankly I do not want to break the confidence of the women I associate with. Trust me when I say I have LOTS of juicy stories to tell, some which would shock every member in this forum. There are some stories which have caused me to have sleepless nights wondering about the fate of humanity. The reason I cannot share these stories, is because these women are HURTING and their stories are very private. I feel fortunate that so many women confided in me, and I will never break that trust.

Going back to the blog posts that annoy me so much...the reason they depress me so much and make me angry is because some of these posters revel in their exploits. These are exactly the kind of people who cause these women pain and take advantage of them. Yes, they are the big westerner over there who has god-like status. I have heard that story over and over. But no one every considers the cast away women, the one-night stands, or the women who have been randomly dropped in a relationship simply because a guy wanted another notch in his belt.

John, I am what you call an empathetic person. I really do imagine what it is like to be in the woman's place, and not just from the ever-conquering western god perspective. To hear so many of these stories, I have to be honest...it makes you want to cry. It's really pathetic. When I ask guys why they go to China to do this to women, the answer seems to be along the same lines: "because I can". They would NEVER act this way in their home countries John. Never. Only in China.

Sadly, I must decline the offer to blog for CLM, even though there is still so much I want to say. Thank you again for your thoughtful response.
From: China 北京(bei jing) 北京(bei jing) @justpmitch Time : 2012-08-05 23:07:41 #8
Hi "Anonymous in Arlington, Texas,"
I assume I am one of the miscreant (look the word up in your outdated Chinese-English dictionariy) bloggers you refer to. Let me start by saying hiding under your "anonymous" status isn't a good start. At least all the bloggers here write under their true names and photos. Why don't you have the courage to at least do the same?
John Abbott is gracious and understanding and honestly has declined a couple times when i had second thoughts about sending him something I sent and asked him to delete it.
He's right that the number of female bloggers - Chinese females, btw, didnt Mao say women hold up half the sky? is large and presents prehaps a larger and more comprehensive view than that of a few old white guys who've been here awhile.
I'm sure a male Chinese blogger would be welcome if he had the courage to post under his name and picture. I suspect you are a potential one because your written English, while prettty good, does not read like a native English speaker, though Texas English is another country sometimes. :}
Why haven't I found a partner here yet? Maybe because of circumstances I have no reason to tell you or anyone else, but it has nothing to do with womanizing.
If you want to brag about the 150 women you have contacted who cause you to lose sleep for their difficuties, my question is, "Why after 150 women haven't you found at least one you can love and comfort?" I've contacted a few through my years at CLM and a couple of us are still friends, though not lovers. That' s good enough for me at the moment..
Good luck at your studies at UT-Arlington -- not one of America's finest colleges by the way -- but Im sure you'll find a way to make it better.
Justin Mitchell
From: Canada British Columbia Victoria @bmccull Time : 2012-08-06 08:02:12 #9
Posting as 'Anonymous' is like a profile with no picture. I just can't take you seriously. Now I am able to recognize some of those posts through the common writing style, I wonder where all your hostility comes from? I am grateful to the bloggers for sharing their stories and I also wonder where these tales of debauchery are?
From: China 江苏(jiang su) 苏州(su zhou ) @aussieghump Time : 2012-08-06 12:14:21 #10
HistGuy, it is a pity that you choose to post anonymously - it would be much easier to get a 'picture' of you as a person from the comments you make...what your motives may be, what you are trying to extend to the audience.
Without this chain of connectivity then it is hard to put a put a 'human face' on comments that come 'out of the blue' and may be personal in nature about the writer - it is really easy to discount what you really have to say as being a 'rant' and not necessarily take anything you have to say into much consideration.

As a blogger on CLM, I would like to remind you that the blogs themselves are not easy to construct. You are trying to give a credible piece of writing that is entertaining and factual in around 700 words... please don't think that they reflect the true 'depth' of thought of the blogger or the situation they may be in. I personally have had to make 'tough-love' decisions with relationships to ultimately protect the woman from a negative influence a relationship with me might have (because I didn't feel a connection when she was 'besotted') - there is a very big difference with many Chinese women who a 'determined to marry' and 'make any relationship work at any cost'. Maybe this was wrong, maybe I should have let things go further - but I agonised over giving 'mixed messages' and 'breaking the lady's heart' and the timing of that situation - so while my resulting article was a 'funny story' about a matchmaker, don't assume that it didn't have any emotional damage on the writer in real life.

If you think that all people are here on a 'hedonistic ego' trip, then I am sorry, you are very wrong about this! I do not feel like a god in China - I am a crying baby...even for the simplest things I must cry until somebody can help me! Hardly 'god-like' behaviour. I don't have hot and cold running women in my apartment, nor to I have a belt with notches - Please try to get over the stereotypical images that you may have of people who choose to move to other places and see what they actually write and discover!

To be fair, you must realise that the blogs are 'personal' pieces about the writer so they will be somewhat 'self-centred'. Also understand that China is a 'hard place' to live and that many of the bloggers have been doing so for many years - it is akin to being abducted by aliens, taken to their spaceship and being let roam around - the language barrier is just one problem, there is a distinct difference in 'logic' and there is the 'alien' to the community and culture issue as well - as a result, we tend to be 'observers' of the situation rather than 'full incorporation'. If our observation is 'harsh' or 'lop-sided' then that would be a fair assumption - but we are also trying to wear Chinese-Glasses too when we look at this world. I can only 'discuss' about how I see things - and hopefully others will make their own call and enlighten me more on the subject in question.

The 'gripes' you mention are not actually 'complaints' - we choose to live here and work here and can leave at any time - but they do try to explain the 'differences' between the cultures and how 'Chineseness' is perceived by others. You ask 'us' to check our idiosyncrasies at the door - but don't advise 'Chinese people' hoping to meet Mr/Mrs Right about the obvious differences and clashes that can occur?
It is not preaching or pontificating - it is the cutting edge.
If even politicians and diplomats can't get it right after 60 years then what hope the rest of us! And so the response is 'if you do X, the outcome could be Y'...not gripes or complaints but just solid perceptions.

For the record, I never blog about people I have met on CLM in any way that can identify them. (From memory there is only one item of mine that mentions a conversation in passing from another CLM member). Many of the women I meet are nursing many 'hurts' about love, loss, abuse, social pariah and community expectations issues and more - so I don't write about these. This type of critique would be too raw and unnerving - remember what you see as being 'stories of confidence' are everyday occurrences to the women of China. Can you preach a different path to the monolith of China male-centric culture??? I thought not! That would just be 'griping', wouldn't it?

Please don't think that bloggers walk around 'blind' to the plight of the people they are with - the bloggers that are living in China and Asia (or have travelled there extensively) all see, hear and interact daily with many people across a broad spectrum of life and lifestyles - but my conversations/interactions with the local cleaning lady, the stall owners, the local businessmen, the everyday people I meet on the subway and the bus are not particularly riveting reading - especially on a site who's main topic is dating.

So, to finish up, I'd like to remind you that to get benefit from the community, you must join in the community - not just sit one the sidelines taking anonymous snipes at it!

More is a pity you cannot blog - your viewpoint would be interesting and add to the variety on the site, and maybe make it less misogamistly banal, as you seem to think it has become!

Gareth (tempted to hit 'Anonymous') Humphris
JiangSu, SuZhou
Anonymous2281
@Anonymous2281 Time : 2012-08-06 15:02:38 #11
其实我道有个想法,江苏卫视《非诚勿扰》所以火爆,吸引眼球以至连续举办澳洲、法国、美、加专场,场上会员滚动越来越快。我想除去他们严格把关外,与孟非的场上掌控无不息息相关。只要有的无论男、女会员跑题,孟非马上就会打断:“你是来干啥子的?”会员们马上就反应过来:哦,我是来找老公(老婆)的,这话题戛然而止。同行间不妨学习学习。
From: Canada British Columbia Victoria @bmccull Time : 2012-08-06 22:17:21 #12
Posting as 'Anonymous' is like a profile with no picture. I just can't take you seriously. Now I am able to recognize some of those posts through the common writing style, I wonder where all your hostility comes from? I am grateful to the bloggers for sharing their stories and I also wonder where these tales of debauchery are?
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