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John Abbot is co-owner of ChinaLoveMatch.net. Married to a lovely Chinese Lady and living in China, John knows and respects China, Chinese Women, Chinese People and Chinese Culture. His blog will include good stuff about Online Dating, Chinese Women, International Relationships and Things Chinese. Join John Abbot on Google+
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Wading In on Western Scumbag Men vs Desperate Chinese Women (Part 1)    

By John Abbot
5934 Views | 10 Comments | 8/28/2011 11:38:18 PM
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This guy seems to pretty much fit in to the CLM vision of what makes a man a Scumbag. Photo courtesy of www.collegehumor.com

When is a Scumbag Man not a Scumbag?

What is a "Scumbag" anyway. For different people in different circumstances "scumbag" may mean different things, but for CLM bloggers and readers the term (with a capital "S" it seems) appears to mean a man who is out to have sex with every woman he meets. But surely that alone cannot cause a man to be a scumbag, because that would to some degree include most of us. So let's look at other factors that may come into play before we see a man as being Scumbag.

I suspect we can all agree on certain circumstances where a man is being a scumbag. Some men are so bad that even the man himself would agree he's a scumbag, but he'd either be such a scumbag that he takes pride in it, or he has a litany of bad things he has suffered which he feels excuse him for being a scumbag. However, others may have serious faults, but "scumbag" seems pretty strong to describe them, and still others may, appear on the surface to be scumbags, but on closer inspection they are clearly not so. Finally, a Western man may seem to be a Scumbag to certain Chinese women, but not to other Chinese women nor to Westerners.

To start with, let's look at 5 different Western men. I’m going to reveal whether I think each is a Scumbag, but I welcome you to disagree:

Man #1: He lines up 5 different women in China to meet up with when he travels here, telling them all how much he loves them and intends to marry them, when his only true intention is to have sex with each of them and then move on to the next. Add to that his intention to make her pay for everything he can possibly wrench out of her while they're together, and he's clearly not only a scumbag, but one beyond hope of ever being cured of his “scumbagishness”.

But let's shed some of the damning layers of the onion.

Man #2: this guy lines up 5 women to meet because he is truly intending to find his lifemate but understands the odds against that are not good if he only meets 1 woman on his lengthy and expensive journey over to China. He's chosen 5 women he found attractive and while he isn't there just to have sex with them, he considers sex to be important in marriage and he intends to discover if they are sexually compatible during his visit with each of them. But he lies to each of them about the existence of the others because he doesn't want to have to deal with their jealousy and insecurity, and he expects each of them to cover their own costs since he's paid a bundle to make the trip. Still a scumbag? I'm not so sure anymore - his motives aren't so bad, but he seems like a selfish heel and not likely someone who'll make a great husband.

Man #3: this guy lines up the 5 women, is motivated to find a great lifemate, intends to make sex part of the test, but tries very hard to be open that he is meeting 5 women during his visit. However, in the process he finds 4 of the 5 women placing intense and ongoing pressure on him to come and meet only them, some even refusing to meet him unless he promises to dump the others in advance. Finally, unable to take the pressure and unwilling to lose any of the 5 n case she is "the ONE", he starts to lie and promise that each of them is the only one he intends to meet. He's included in his budget sufficient money to pay for enough of the travel and expenses that each lady will not be out of pocket, but he'd appreciate them each paying for the things that they'd have been paying for if he hadn't come to China, such as the clothes they pick up when they're shopping and the odd meal that they would have had to eat anyway. I doubt that anyone would consider this guy to be a scumbag. Some (myself for one), would say he's a little weak and should have stuck it out and refused to lie, but other's would retort "Come on John, you can't expect 5 women to agree to meet you knowing about the others, be realistic”. Others might say he's a little cheap, to expect to have sex with them and not even buy them a nice present. But no one would likely call him a scumbag.

Man #4: this guy lines up all 5 women, insists that each one accept he will be meeting 5 in total and explains he has been burned before in a bad marriage and this time he wants to be careful and get it right for her sake as well as his. He tells them in advance that sexual compatibility is important to him and he would like to determine if they are sexually compatible. However, they should not feel intensely pressured to have sex if they feel it is not something they wish to do so early in the relationship, but they should understand that even that is a measure of whether or not they are sexually compatible and objecting could knock them out of the competition. He brings gifts with him and intends to pay for everything, recognizing that it is enough these good women have set aside their time for him, either taking time off work or scheduling their holidays in order to be with him. Pretty clearly this guy is not a scumbag but quite the opposite. The only thing uncomfortable about this fellow is the subtle pressure to either go to bed with him or risk losing him.

Finally, Man #5: this one is like #4 in every way except that he tells the women in advance that he is sexual by nature but they should not feel any pressure at all. If they both feel a spark that inclines them to go to bed then they will, but otherwise they'll set that aside for a later time. First they should just find out if they really enjoy and like each other as friends. Probably we would all agree this man is solid Gold, although some would say he does not really exist.

There are obviously lots of men who don’t fall into any of these categories but since it seems that it is the desire to have sex with the women one meets that is the first requirement of a man being a scumbag, I’m limiting my descriptions to men who do like sex and would at least prefer to have sex with each of the women they meet if that was possible.

So my question is which of the above men are truly Scumbags and which are not scumbags? Please give us your opinions in the comments.

Next blog I’ll try to categorize 5 types of women who might be seen as “Desperate Chinese Women”. After that we’ll try to bring them together to see how they might interact, and then react, to each other.

Copyright owned jointly by Author and CyberCupid Co., Ltd. Breach of copyright will be prosecuted.
Comments
(Showing 1 to 10 of 10) 1
#2011-08-29 20:15:43 by abi513 @abi513

Good article John with some very important questions and food for thought.

I believe just like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so are Scumbags.

One man or womans Scumbag is another's Treasure! :)

I'll be interested to see how you tie all this together and member comments.

#2011-08-31 04:21:30 by canadianmike @canadianmike

Excellent article, and the categorizations are fairly realistic (including the rhetorical question of whether or not #5 really exists). I will reserve my comments to when your article on women comes out. Who knows, I may try to pair up members of each group to satisfiy the saying "At least two people are suffering, and not four".

#2011-09-01 06:52:51 by Qianhui @Qianhui

感谢你以一个公正的立场写了这么好的文章,你说的这种事情我就遇到过,这些男人打着西方性开放的旗号,以婚姻为借口,来满足他们的欲望,ER欺骗中国女人的感情,对于这种男人当然是要置之不理,因为他们是骗子,垃圾,有损外国人在中国女性当中的形象。
值得称道的是大多数外国人是真诚的,他们热爱中国文化,喜欢中国女人美丽,温柔,善良,聪明智慧,喜欢中国女人敬老尊夫爱幼的传统美德,在中国找到了他们的灵魂伴侣,所以我相信在这里我也会遇到这样好的西方男人,也祝愿所有来此网站的人们都能够:有情人终成眷属!
再次感谢你写了这么一篇好文章给我们

#2011-09-02 11:47:16 by anonymous2318 @anonymous2318

john, i believe i was the person yaya was referring to in her blog some weeks back, followed by the always candid bren calling me this lovely term based upon no facts at all. i let it go because only i know the truth. yes, i did go to china this year and yes, i did meet five chinese women, four of whom said they wanted to marry me and three of those wanted the ceremony to take place right away. i paid for almost everything in every city. i had no sex with anyone though i must admit a few evenings got pretty hot and heavy....whew. a month later i returned to china with the goal of meeting four or five more but one extremely special lady emerged from the pack and i spent the entire second journey with her. you correctly point out that although almost all chinese women want to be the only one considered, almost all western men spending fifteen to thirty thousand RMB are going to hedge their bets and make the long trip worthwhile. now this special lady is coming to join me in america and it could lead to the ultimate goal thanks to CLM. scumbag, huh bren? come on.....

#2011-09-03 15:12:05 by woaizhongguo @woaizhongguo

A great moral column I can’t resist commenting on: what indeed makes one a scumbag? Clearly the main issue in this situation, as you point out, involves deception. What makes 4 and 5 morally commendable people is their lack of deception. Generally speaking, you can’t go wrong from a moral point of view with the truth (unless, of course, you have Anne Frank in your attic and the Nazis come to the door looking for Jews). However, I find it hard to draw a moral distinction between 2 and 3. They are both sincere in their desire to find a lifemate and they both lie in order to achieve that end. I think in the end it is a forgivable lie. The mere fact that #3 lied under pressure does not seem to make his lie any different than #2’s lie from a moral point of view. His intent to tell the truth is morally meaningless. As that great philosopher Yoda said, “No try—do!” In any case, both would seem to pass the Kantian test for moral action in that they are using the women not solely as means to an end (immoral) but as ends in themselves (moral). I think both #2 & 3 are not using the women simply as means to gratifying their own pleasures because they are seriously considering them as possible life mates. This same test is the reason I would call #1 a scumbag (I’m not sure what Kant would call him since I don’t know the German for ‘scumbag’).

#2011-09-04 22:55:58 by anonymous2324 @anonymous2324

To Mr Anonymous,

I write here, just want to make it clear and serious. Or there won't be any good and upright persons writing blogs here. We Chinese good women need the help.

Bren wrote the blog " Is He A Sumbag,OR A Bad Man?" it is a really Scumbag. He had admited and he has delected his profile from CLM. He did had sex with many women he met in China, include married women, single women, divorced women. How many women did he met and have sex, only he knows.

Please read the Scumbag's Final Words to a Chinese lady he met and he ever made promises to her.

2011/8/19 (周五) 10:31:00 上午

My Final Words

The last couple of days have been good to me, but they will prove bad for us. I have thought of many things since reading Bren's blog. I still cannot believe that you think that was me in Yaya's blog, I was mad at this and continue to be hurt by your actions and words. I will not have any more contact with you at all. I am sorry that this happened but it is something I have decided, and I will not change my mind. All I ask is that you honor my decision . I have deleted my profile on CLM and will not go back there. I find it a to have been a bad influence for me.
I have never wanted to be a bad person, so now, I will cut ties with what I feel made my life that way, and that is that sight. It is just not for me. I will continue to cut any ties that have made me a person like the words in the blog, I am not a player, not a scumbag, and if I happen to be one, it will no longer be. It starts here.

Good bye, (name removed by moderator)


This is the sumbag in Bren's Blog. His given name is (name removed by moderator). There are many (name removed by moderator) in the world, we know.


So, Mr Anonymous .

You said you believe you were the person yayaliu was referring to in her blog some weeks back???

How can it be????

NOTE FROM CLM: We're sorry but we have an obligation not to reveal member's personal info on our sites. The fact that someone gave their name in a private message to one member does not make it okay for us to reveal it here. That is why we have removed the person's name.

#2011-09-05 08:05:12 by anonymous2325 @anonymous2325

More details to Mr Anonymous,

The Scumbag landed in Shanghai when he visited China the second time. He met different women. One woman asked for leave from her work and spent more than 10 hours taking a train from her hometown to meet him in Shanghai and Hangzhou. It is said she even paid subway for the Scumbag.
Who knows how many women paid for him during he cheating around China??? Now he is busy preparing his next trip to China again.

Added the details here, Frist, hope to make you clear who the men were in yayaliu's blog.

Second, the more important is
Hope, more women read the blogs. Get some warnings.


#2011-09-06 21:27:16 by JohnAbbot @JohnAbbot

I think the comments above reflect very diverse and interesting responses, although I'm a little disappointed that, except for Peter, nobody chose to indicate which of the above men qualified for the title of "Scumbag" in their opinion and I welcome you all do so now.

A few responses to the comments are as follows:

Abi513 (aka David Lee - blogger) - thanks for your encouragement and your very clever comment relating to "one woman's Scumbag". Frankly as I write this series it remains a bit of a muddle in my mind, and I'm in a state of angst that when I try to "tie it together" it will merely unravel entirely and I'll be more confused by the issue than ever of exactly how the male Scumbags are connected to the Desperate women, but there is a very strong connect so I hope I'll be able to define it and explain it when the time comes.

CanadianMike - I look forward to that unique pairing you are intending to offer us.

QianHui - I am responding to a translation of your comment which I hope is accurate. First, thanks for reading and thanks for commenting, and thank you for your praise. I too hope that the good women who are on CLM, including those who are "desperate" (which I will deal with in my next blog in this series, which I hope to have published tomorrow), are able to find a good husband to marry amongst the majority of Western men, who are good and sincerely here because of an admiration for and attraction to good Chinese women. Of course there are Scumbags on CLM, but I sincerely believe they are a small minority, as you seem to believe as well. I wish you personally the greatest success finding a good man on CLM to love, and to be loved by, as true lifemates.

Anonymous Male - based on the comments from the Anonymous Female member that follow below your own it would seem you may be mistaken that you are the "Scumbag" that Bren was referring to. I must say that meeting 5 women on one trip and having sex with none of them in spite of things "getting pretty hot and heavy" not only excludes you from the category of "Scumbag", but nearly places you in the category of "Saint". I believe that way too much time has been spent on speculation as to who was the person mentioned by YayaLiu in her blog - only she knows who exactly she was referring to and she quite properly has chosen not to disclose that information. In my mind, the matter of importance is how we all react to that person's behaviour, not who he is.

Woaizhongguo (aka Peter Vernezze - blogger) - Great comments, but I'm going to focus only on your suggestion that it is "hard to draw a moral distinction between 2 and 3". Personally, I think that the dividing line between Scumbag and non-Scumbag lies somewhere in the behaviour and character of #2. To me there is no question at all that #1 is a Scumbag and no question at all that #3 is not a Scumbag. The one I can't decide about is #2. But I will be expanding on this later in the series and so will save further discussion for then.

Anonymous Female - some of your comments relate to matters yet to come, so I am only going to respond to a couple of items you've mentioned here.

First, as I mentioned to Anonymous Male, I think it is big mistake to focus on who YayaLiu was referring too - who really cares exactly what man that was? What is important is how we should view his behaviour?

Second, I want to point out that there is something that must be asked about the man you write about and his trail of "victims". What is wrong with him having sex with "single and divorced women" and they with him? To me, and I think to most westerners, so long as they were consenting adults, it was up to them to if they chose to have sex or not. The issue to me is that if he was deluding each of them that it was she and she alone he was having sex with, then she cannot be said to have truly consented - she was tricked into consenting - defrauded of her right to choose. If, on the other hand, he was telling them that there were others and he had not "chosen" her and her alone as his potential lifemate, then they truly consented to the act and have nothing to complain about, regardless of how many other women he had sex with.

Finally, what were these "married women" doing having sex with him? If nothing else, this would appear to provide evidence that not all Chinese women fall into the category of the "Good Women of China" as described by YayaLiu in her recent blog, and that there are (as we all know there must be) Chinese women who are not so noble. More on this will be included in the upcoming blogs in this series.

#2011-09-07 22:07:45 by doctorj @doctorj

john, this is yet another provocative and fascinating thread to read, leading all of us to wonder what your "desperate women" piece will reveal. if in fact CLM men have been feasting sexually with CLM women all over china, to include married women one must wonder if there is an element of naivete within the chinese female culture that permits this. or is this similar to the women here in the west who fawn over serial killers, write fan letters to them in prison, and even try to have their babies? that is, is there a psychosis to invite danger here? you and others have written hundreds of pages about warning signs marking what bren (where is he by the way?) calls "players" and now you and others add the lower life "scumbags" to the mix. or have we simply isolated the extreme few and that the vast majority are monogamous on both sides of the globe?

#2012-02-20 01:22:17 by Shanxi @Shanxi

Hi, I am a teacher in Taiyuan. The problem with this city is that the only woman who seem to speak English are the College students. As a teacher in the College, I put myself out of bounds for these young girls, aged about 19 to 23. Besides, I'm 56 and too old for them. So I joined this site on the recommendation of a friend, hoping to meet my Chinese sweetheart, preferrably one with some knowledge of English. I have been a year and a half in China and just can't seem to catch a hold of the language. But Chinese women are so drop-dead gorgeous that I refuse to give up. But it is not easy to find one when you can't speak the lingo. I suppose you could say I'm now in the category of desperate. I hope I don't become a scumbag.

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