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John Abbot is co-owner of ChinaLoveMatch.net. Married to a lovely Chinese Lady and living in China, John knows and respects China, Chinese Women, Chinese People and Chinese Culture. His blog will include good stuff about Online Dating, Chinese Women, International Relationships and Things Chinese. Join John Abbot on Google+
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My Online Chinese Dating Plan Meets Some Serious Opposition    

By John Abbot
8345 Views | 24 Comments | 12/16/2012 3:15:32 PM

This Chinese woman was pictured in the original blog.

Recently a Chinese woman and member of our dating site posted an extremely interesting thread, in a somewhat mocking reference to a series of blog articles I had written a few years back. Her forum thread suggested that she was planning a trip to the West to meet up with a number of Western male members, one at a time, in hopes that one of them at least would be a suitable match and become her life mate.

While on the surface at least, her plan seemed real and viable, as member comments and her responses began to accumulate, it started to become clear that, whether or not she really intended to go through with her plan, the thread was really intended to object to a very similar plan I had proposed for Western men to follow in my blog series.

If you’d like to enlighten yourself on the thread and numerous comments made in response, you might really enjoy reading them here: “Chinese women to find a westernmen by having a long term plan-travel from China”. You can also read my original 3 part series starting with "Find Your Chinese Love by Having a Long Term Plan" here and then following the links to parts 2 & 3.

In her last comment on her own thread, the Chinese lady who posted the thread indicated that indeed she was insulted on behalf of all Chinese women by my proposed plan in which a man travelling to China to find his life mate should have more than one and perhaps several “dates” lined up because it’s a long, expensive journey to make relying on one person whom you’ll be meeting in real life for the first time to turn out you be your perfect match. She was specifically upset that Chinese women were expected to be part of a list of targets for sex and noted that western men would not accept the situation if the roles were reversed.

She then invoked the Golden Rule and asked Western men to treat the Chinese women members as they would wish to be treated themselves.

It is my intention to respond to that last comment here, and link to this blog posting from her Forum thread, because I think this subject matter is extremely important, and I hope by shifting it to this location we can find a larger audience to participate in the discussion.

However, before I do respond to her last comment, let me first express my intense respect, and admiration, for the member who posted the thread in question. I admire her for taking up the cause of women who might have been offended by “my plan”, and for doing so in a very clever and subtly ironic manner. If she actually were to follow through with her plan, I would admire her even more.

Having said that, though, I take issue with her criticism and especially her suggestion that there is a component of my proposed plan that promotes the men planning to have sex with each of the ladies he would travel to China to meet.

Here then is my response to her latest comment and criticism as posted on her own CLM Forum thread:

@Anonymous - I wish to ask you to go back and carefully read the three blog series I wrote. I absolutely defy you to find anywhere that I suggested that the man should be planning to have sex with the women he meets. This plan is about travelling halfway around the world, at substantial expense, and MEETING people that one hopes might be a one’s ideal match. It has nothing to do with bedding people at all.

In part 1 of the series I specifically say:

“Don't dwell on the ones who look like they'd hit the hay with you on a moment's notice, because they probably would - you and about a hundred other guys. Look for real women who want a lifemate, not a customer.”

This is a specific admonishment to the men NOT to make this about sex, but to make it about finding a lifemate.

The only other comment I make about sex comes in part 3 of the series where I state about sex that it "should be discussed in advance" meaning they should set out their expectations so there are no surprises and no undue pressure on anyone. Again, this is a clear statement that if the guy is expecting to have sex with any or all of the women he meets he owes it to them to tell them that ahead of time.

I'm sorry Anonymous, but you have clearly read something into the "plan" that is not there.

And, as it is absent any suggestion that wild abandoned sex be part of it, I stand by this plan to meet several people during your long expensive journey regardless of whether you are male or female.

Do you understand that you could fly from Shanghai to New York, with two weeks planned to be spent with one man, and have him not show up at the airport to greet you because he chickened out, or because he was never really available to begin with.

Or that you could be met at the airport by a guy who is drunk, hasn't showered for a week, and is entirely unlike the man you have been chatting with on the internet. You might absolutely detest this person before you've left the airport. What then?

In real life, as opposed to online dating, you meet the person first, and then if you like them after spending some time with them face to face, you decide if it is worth the time and expense of going out for a dinner with them, or to a movie. It is no big deal.

But with international online dating you don't get that necessary face to face meeting that must happen before you can know for certain that you like the person, without first spending several thousand dollars, and forfeiting a couple of weeks of your time. It is a very big deal.

You have quoted the Golden Rule, a famous teaching of Jesus Christ. While not necessarily a Christian myself, I am a strong believer that the Golden Rule is THE standard by which we all should live.

And so I say unto you: Do not assume the worst of others unless you would have them assume the worst of you. Do not assume that every man who comes to China to meet and get to know a few good women does so with the intention to abuse them and use them sexually, unless you would have that assumed of you.

I firmly believe that 9 out of 10 men on CLM would not come to China with plans to meet 3 or 4 "dates" expecting to have sex with them, and those 9 would disapprove of the 1 out of 10 who did have those expectations. I suggest to you that most of the men following this plan would do so with no wish to have sex with all the women they date while in China. The most they would even be hoping for is that one of the ladies they met would be so obviously their perfect match that they would be head over heels in love with each other, and that that feeling might lead them into some mutually desired love-making.

Don't assume that all Western men are incapable of coming to meet some good Chinese women, being kind and gracious to them, being good company, and becoming good friends with them, without demanding sex or pressuring the ladies to become intimate. Do not assume that unless you would have it assumed of you that you would fly to New York and once there would assume the role of a harlot, playing tramp with man after man.

I originally wrote those blog articles at a time when the Chinese women were not reading the blogs, and so I wrote them for the perceived audience - the men. I am taking a lesson away from this thread, and that is to go back and change those articles to be written to all members, not simply to the male members, and I intend to do that once this discussion has been completed.
However, the recommended plan will not change. I steadfastly believe that until you have physically met the other person you should not commit to him or her, and you should not expect or even allow him or her to commit to you. The time for commitment comes sometime after the first physical meeting, be it 5 minutes after you meet, or 5 months or 5 years.

Until it is time to commit, it remains time to meet as many potential matches as you can. This is especially true when it comes to such an expensive proposition as dating Chinese women by traveling to China from a distant country. However, that you should treat those potential Chinese matches with honesty, kindness and respect goes without saying, and not pressuring them into having sex unwillingly is part of that honesty, kindness and respect.

Copyright owned jointly by Author and CyberCupid Co., Ltd. Breach of copyright will be prosecuted.
Comments
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#2012-12-16 22:38:57 by aussieghump @aussieghump

Please, get over it!!! Every person will have a different attitude to sex, relationships and everything else... if you cannot 'handle' it, just move on and don't associate with that person!

State your desires, negotiate your conditions, share your dreams and then decide what to do! That is all you are being told to do! Nothing more, nothing less.

You are also being told not to 'keep all your eggs in one basket' and to 'prepare for setbacks or irregularities in your travel plans'...this does not mean the guy/girl is a playboy/playgirl, only that they might find incompatibilities or inconsistencies in their 'chosen one' or just plain get 'stood up' at the airport! ... And to spend 2-3 weeks moping around in a hotel room in a foreign country without a friend is not the best holiday in the world if you don't speak the language, know the food, know many customs or anything else.

The lady who is writing in on this forum was given some pretty good advice - about keeping herself safe when travelling and being aware of the conditions and attitudes of 'unchaperoned travel by a single woman in a foreign country' - but none of it was 'judgemental' and most of it recommended 'common sense' and encouraged her to do whatever she desired - she misled her readers with her true intention and attitude. Is that the actions of a trustworthy person?

Most of the men on this site are here because they are searching for aserious monogamous relationship - as are most of the women...to keep doubting their intention and to keep attacking them is pretty immature and not really self-serving in any way!

Sorry ladies, if you cannot show a little more trust - you are not suited to dating a foreigner and certainly not suited to travelling to another country to be with them!

If you are so savage as to attack a friend for smiling at another lady, I question whether you are even suited to be married at this time!
The reason being: marriage requires immense trust and if you still have 'personal issues' with this aspect of your life, you cannot really love anyone enough to go through the rocky path of married life - especially in a place where one partner does not know or understand the 'everyday' situations, is in an unfamiliar environment, has difficulty with language or doesn't understand nuances of the culture!

So please calm down - establish what you are looking for in a partner and start looking for that person! If you cannot find that one or are disappointed in the ones you choose to talk to, then maybe your expectations are too high, or your attitude is too strong and could mellow a little.

Get over the idea of 'being in love with the perfect person' and get into the idea of 'loving someone - for all their good and bad points - perfectly!'...

#2012-12-17 00:45:40 by sandy339 @sandy339

My goodness, how similar situation we must get through and learn from it?

Hi Peter
Frist, I want to say the member’s thread is not some opposition to your online Chinese dating plan, but hers is some different voices from a real Chinese woman in my understanding.
And I went through the thread of the Member and listened her favorite song Ever-sleeping she is romantic to her nature, not sure she will really travel for that, mostly just a way of thinking about it. my only suggestion is be patient and take a natural path.

Ok, my opinions on this are :
1. travel plan
It is really personal choice, if the member could afford to it, why not? But in reality, it is so hard and dangerous, my suggesion is you could just travel and take an esay mood for that and get more experience and knowledge about the country, maybe in the travel you could meet your Mr. Right.?

2. several “dates”
“She was insulted on behalf of all Chinese women by my proposed plan in which a man travelling to China to find his life mate should have more than one and perhaps several “dates” lined up?” I totally understand her, I was on her side before. I met a man, we enjoyed talking so much we talked for hours everytime and he planned to come to China. At that time I felt so right about him and I asked him how many women did he plan to meet, he didn’t reply and wanted me to understand it. I was insulted and hurt at that time( I was so surprised why he could not just give me a white lie at that time?Now I understand cos he is honest all the time? haha) It did matter to my pride, but it doesn’t matter now, I have already figured it out: because it is a free and rational world, we could choose and we are chosen. They come and they go, we have no control; but we come and we go, no one could control us either. Do I miss chatting with him? For sure. Do I regret? Not at all, it was very very over…
Do I ask the same question to the next one who want to see me? Never and ever and until all is settled, I think we should have a clear picture and confidence in it. We will find our compatible one, what matters maybe is only time, I could wait and enjoy the whole process…until my life partner appear….We should be patient!

And Peter, you said “This is especially true when it comes to such an expensive proposition as dating Chinese women by traveling to China from a distant country. However, that you should treat those potential Chinese matches with honesty, kindness and respect goes without saying, and not pressuring them into having sex unwillingly is part of that honesty, kindness and respect.” I take it, hope the member could take it too, we should play with the same rule….

#2012-12-17 04:25:51 by strongk @strongk

John, good response.

My take on this post comes from first hand experience.

My story:

I chatted with and built, what I thought, was a pretty decent rappore with an a Chinese woman in from mainland China near HK.

We eventually talked on yahoo and skype and I felt it was time to meet and she agreed. We even planned a few days together doing things to get to know each other. She had to arrange to come to HK and meet so I felt pretty confident that she would at least show up and if things did not go well we would spend a few days together just as friends.

She met me at the appropriate time and place in HK right after I arrived at the airport. We then went to my hotel room to check in. She seemed really friendly albeit somewhat nervous, but that was to be expected, we just met in person, so I was not alarmed at this.

She actually came to my room, voluntarily, I didn't ask or hint that she do so. She casually took a seat on my bed, picked up my Ipad and started playing games. She was relaxed and so I'm thinking all is good.

I was tired after 19 hours of flying so I told I was taking a shower and then we could go get some food. It was only about 7pm so I figured we would catch the MTR and head to central for late dinner. She said, sure we can do that but first I want to go say hello to some friends who live close nearby. So when you finish your shower, just sms me and I will be right back.

That seemed reasonable to me so she gave me a nice friendly hug and left. I took my shower.

That was the last time I ever saw or heard from her again. Period.

Not even a dear John email or sms. I was somewhat miffed but after an hour or so with no responses from my sms or calls, so I headed out to eat.

Fortunately for me, I have many friends in HK so I altered my plans and had an enjoyable evening. I actually met another woman, via mutual friends, and we ended up having a great time during my stay. It was not a love connection, but we still remain friends till this day.

As far as the first woman I came to HK to meet was concerned, I never hinted or suggested anything about sex or intimacy. We did discuss the sex subject but I made it clear that I was not on a sex holiday but sincerely looking for a wife.

In her defense, if there is any, I believe that any and every woman, or person for that matter, has the right to change their mind. Free will is not suspended because someone travels to the other side of planet just to meet with you.

However, just the mere fact that a person, male or female, has made such a long journey at a considerable expense of time and money, the other party should, at least, live up to their end of the deal and give the guy or gal a parting reason, a short and sweet explanation, of why they were dumped.

Realistically, will this happen? Probably not. Its easier to just walk away. Most people don't deal well with rejection or rejecting. Why? Because when you reject someone sometimes they tend to want to hang around and get more in detail about why or sometimes they can't accept the rejection and want to continue the discussion and prove that they should not be rejected, or they get angry and sometimes become insulting or you hurt their feelings and in the case of women they cry or or men lose their composure in some unfortunate way.

To resolve these issues, I think that maybe a short sms or email should be pre-arranged between both parties.

In my case, I didn't even follow up with an email or sms at a later date. And she didn't send one either.

I didn't bother her again, I just dropped it.

Lesson learned.

My advice to any man or woman who is already involved or contemplating international online dating, always engage conversation with at least 5 or 6 possible matches.

Whether you tell each of your potential matches of your plans to meet other people on your trip is up to you. In my case, I will not. I'm not hiding anything but if asked I will tell the truth. That I am travelling a long way and spending a considerable amount of time and money to find the right woman. Once I find an good match I will choose one woman and not pursue any others.

If a woman chooses not to respect my decision, then that's her choice, she can walk away.

Based on my experience I would rather for her to walk away while we are chatting online and I am in the comfort of my own home that when I am sitting in a hotel room in Hong Kong waiting for a sms reply that will never come.

The End

#2012-12-18 12:36:21 by justvero @justvero

About commitment: Then why most men I met online always demand that I close my account so as to focus on himself? I agree that as long as we haven't met each other it is quite difficult to commit to someone. I think they are scammers although they close their accounts as well. I think the real reason that they close their account is that I won't be able to report them as 'Abuse' when I am aware if they are scammers.

#2012-12-18 14:18:31 by aussieghump @aussieghump

@Justvero, if someone asks you to 'close' your account and use an alternative network then they could well be scammers!

They may close their accounts because A) they have been caught by the scammer prison or B) they have 'caught' someone else and are trying to 'lure' them away by indicating that 'closing your account is the honest thing to do".

If you suspect a scammer - report them...the webmaster can gain evidence/patterns of behaviour on them and see if they are actually doing something or are an actual user!

Seriously, is someone is so possessive that they want to 'force' you to close and account as 'evidence of trust' then maybe they are a little 'extreme'!

If you decided to 'commit' to them (and I suggest that this needs a few video messages, a visit, some phone calls etc at least) then you might consider reducing visibility on your profile site, removing/locking pictures or changing your profile a little so that you are not giving the wrong message!

#2012-12-18 14:36:17 by aussieghump @aussieghump

In support of StrongK's story, there have been 3 instances where I have been 'stood up' after travelling in China to meet a prospective partner! Luckily, I speak a little Chinese, will eat anything and will happily travel around and do things in China! But for a new person in a strange city...this is not so easy!

I have also helped a friend who had a similar situation - coming to meet someone who never showed! I blogged about it!

If you look, a couple of other bloggers have actually spoken about it as well - so in the community we have here online, it is not unheard of!!!!

For my experience, this is with ladies that have been quite 'open and encouraging' to having you travel to meet them...and then either not meeting, finding an excuse to be somewhere else after a few minutes or not following up with subsequent plans - often with the phone/email/sms in 'Power Off' mode!

This 'disliking something and disappearing' is a common Chinese action when there is possibly a 'loss of face'! Refusing to talk after the fact is also common for the same reason.

For me it is a few hours of inconvenience in travel - but for people travelling at high expense in time, money and 'life (job, holiday leave, etc)'...it is quite a bad situation - hence the contingency plan recommended by John!

If you are 'the one', the guy/lady has no need to use Plan B...but if you flake out, or are incompatible for whatever reason, then the holiday in China (or another place) may be enjoyed!

#2012-12-18 22:41:10 by sandy339 @sandy339

@ John so sorry for the name mistake :-)
@ Hi, aussieghump, you are really a good westerner thinker, we could change our opinons here :-) BTW, your pics are so cool......
@ Hi, strongk, your case makes a lot of senses,....Still Good Luck to you!

#2012-12-20 05:00:33 by hello141 @hello141

People should take time to understand before assuming too much. If you assume quickly, then how can you have a meaningful relationship?

#2012-12-22 05:24:41 by Andypanda @Andypanda

The main thing I take from all these comments is this. The situation is different for every individual
I can see the common sense in having a few prospective partners lined up in case one does not turn out to be successful.
I can also see the hurt from finding out that the other person has a few "back up's" lined up should you not be "the one".
I dont agree that if a woman wants to sleep with you early in the piece that she would jump into bed with any guy. This may be true some times but we are all grow up's and jumping into bed is something most of us like to do. I also believe this can be a sign of deep affection or showing a willingness to give yourself to that person.
I dont think we should judge people as having loose morals if they like (or LOVE) sex.
I think people should realize that every one has the right to change their mind and also the right to take things as slow or fast as they chose, being that both agree of coarse.
I wish everyone luck in their search and much happiness for 2013.

On a personal note, DONT GIVE UP. Internet dating does work.
I know
;-)

#2012-12-22 19:43:49 by anonymous5022 @anonymous5022

From the thread creator:
Hi John, I opened the thread mainly coz I have read a few by Chinese women members about their dislikes of being on ‘a list’. And I was also quite curious about how men would feel if they were in the same situation. It was interesting to see a few men strongly objected to my plan just like some of the women members do.
There is nothing wrong about the plan you suggested. Guess it’s quite useful and practical for some of the members while not able to fit in for other some. People are always different anyway.

My conclusion about it is:
If you don’t want to be in a list, treat the opposite gender the same way;
If you don’t mind to be in a list, you can try a list.
So before the plan, consider which way is more comfortable for yourself.

For my real plan, yes, I am planning to travel to the West, may be Oct or Nov next year though I don’t have a list yet ; and I have been to Europe early this year without a list and visited one man in one country.
Travelling over the world has always be my biggest dream even without the consideration of looking for a man. So at least I am able to fulfil one dream while travelling.

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