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John Abbot is co-owner of ChinaLoveMatch.net. Married to a lovely Chinese Lady and living in China, John knows and respects China, Chinese Women, Chinese People and Chinese Culture. His blog will include good stuff about Online Dating, Chinese Women, International Relationships and Things Chinese. Join John Abbot on Google+
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How Many Chinese Women Should I Meet?    

By John Abbot
3482 Views | 13 Comments | 7/28/2015 11:48:48 PM

How many Chinese women does one guy need to meet on his quest to China to find true love?

This blog started out as a response to comments made on Peter’s blog How to Fall in Love with a Chinese Woman and you should go read that blog and the comments there to better understand the issues discussed here, but I have tried to write this in a way that you will be able to get it without doing that if you don’t have much time. Having said that, the issue being discussed by Peter in his blog, and the arising issue discussed here, are crucial issues in online dating, especially international online dating, so if that’s what you’re into then you should take the time and read it all.



We are currently doing a major rebuild of ChinaLoveMatch.net, and a complete remake of AsiaLovematch.net, and much of the changes we are making is in response to the issue raised here. You will be faced with these questions and how you will choose to answer them, and it will be a major decision in how you will proceed to meet your possible future life partner.



The basic issue of this blog you are reading now is “Should a man travelling all the way to China in hopes of finding his perfect match during that trip, first use online dating to weed out all potential mates except the one he feel is “the one”, or should he simply weed out all potential mates down to a list of the several he feels maybe really could be “the one”? Simply, should a man traveling to China to meet his one true Chinese love match try to meet mutliple Chinese women cadidates or should he narrow it to just one?



This is not the first time for this discussion and I think I can fairly state that it has become a basic assumption that in either case the man should be open, honest and transparent and that in either case nobody should feel any pressure to have sex as a condition of being approved ultimately as the life mate.



@Barry1 – you first spoke of your reliance on the Golden Rule in deciding you must only meet one person on your quest to meet your one true love, and then you wrote:



“I inherently know that were I a Chinese lady who'd been speaking for many weeks or perhaps months to a Western man, I'd far prefer to know that the man if he visited China, would only visit one person - me.”



I am really sorry Barry, but I don't see that at all. Sitting at home in Brisbane, you might meet several women and be dating them at the same time. I suggest to you that until you commit to one of them that it is agreed to make the relationship exclusive, none of them would consider it an insult to their self-respect that you dated more than one woman. In fact, I suggest that in these times it would be considered somewhat insecure and maybe even pathetic to tell someone you are seeing but not committed to that they should not date anyone else.  How does that change because they are in a massive country that you will have to spend upwards of $5,000 to come and visit them?



It would be disrespectful and an insult to their self-respect to lie to them and tell them you are committed to just them, and then go visit other Chinese women behind their back, but that isn't what we are talking about here at all. And how does that differ from dating women back home?



It would be disrespectful and even damaging to their self-respect to come here expecting and pressuring several women to all have sex with you before you have entered a committed relationship, of course. But that's not what we are talking about here, and it never has been. We're talking about coming to China and in an open and honest manner and meeting up with several women on the basis that you will be meeting them and that sex will be off the table until one of them is the one you commit to and she commits to you. If someone does that and is lying about it, then of course it is disrespectful. But when isn't deceiving someone to get what you want from them disrespectful.



If you are doing that it is disrespectful, whether you are a man doing it to women or a woman doing it to men, and it makes no difference at all if those are women in China or Brisbane or men in Cambodia or new York. It is disgusting behaviour.



I try to live and breathe the Golden Rule, and as you say it is a philosophical principle adopted by all major religions and ethical traditions. It was highlighted in early Confucianism long before the time it is attributed to the Bible.



But I don't think you get to play that card here. Meeting multiple dates in China honestly and sincerely with all the cards on the table does not break the Golden Rule unless you would not accept the exact same treatment from them if any of them came to Australia to meet you. Nobody here who is suggesting they would multi-date is saying they wouldn't accept turn-around as fair.



In fact, your reliance on the Golden Rule to answer my question really confounds me even more, because my question was based on the very fact that you did NOT follow the Golden Rule in your actions with Tina. My question to you was why you found it okay for Tina to have 2 men in the picture but did not allow yourself that right? Another way of asking it could well be "Why didn't you follow the Golden Rule with Tina or at least expect her to follow it with you?".



And your answer seems to be "I didn't follow the Golden Rule in this case because I believe in the Golden Rule?"



I am not pressuring you on this because I think you are wrong. I am sincerely interested in understanding your POV. We are working on big changes to CLM and ALM in the background and I'd like to include changes that allow both sides on this issue to deal with it openly and honestly with each other during the dating process.



Can I ask you to please try answering again with that in mind?



@Anniehow - regarding your response:



"It is NOT about the ladies, it is about the MEN."



I beg to differ!  Online dating is not about the MEN only. How can that be possible? It is about all the participants, and so is this question or discussion. Forget you are taking about Western Men visiting Chinese women in China, and let's discuss Chinese women meeting western men in America. Do you think the principles change? Is it okay for the Chinese women who are coming to America to meetup with multiple men?



What I really see in your response is what I consider to be a massive and false assumption, and an insulting one I might add. You operating on the strange belief that all the Chinese women who date online are sweet, innocent and angelic, and that the vast majority of the men are deceitful, disgusting game players.  I understand that you didn't mean to insult all men, but by packaging us up and saying we can't be trusted, I think you have unintantionally done that.



But what would you possibly base that assumption on?



Have you online dated with a large number of Chinese women?



I recognize that here on the blogs and forum you don't find many of the Chinese women admitting to being game players, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. There aren't any men on here admitting to being game players either. And yet we all know there are some on CLM, it's inevitable.



But after 8 years of watching the goings on CLM I can tell you, the percentage of game playing males is roughly the same as the game playing women. They are not all playing the same games, but they are playing deceitful and damaging games nonetheless.



We do not monitor or check members’ chats or messages at all, but we are frequently required to look at them as a result of scammer accusations, reports of really rude behaviour, requests by members themselves to retrieve messages they can't get at anymore because their upgrades have expired, and for many more reasons.



During those investigations It stuns me how many members of both gender will be telling several people they are dating on site that they are committed to a one to one relationship with that person alone. We see both men and women in equal numbers telling one person they are their one and only, frequently already calling that person their husband or their wife, and yet they are sending out new kisses daily trying to meet someone "better".



And I am telling you we see the same numbers of women doing it as men. This discussion we are having now, and any discussion that involves how much you should trust someone you meet online, IS about the WOMEN, and IS about the MEN!



Online dating is a platform for meeting people and narrowing them down to the small number you think you might be able to love.  You cannot trust, or commit 100%, to anyone you have only met online. I don't care if you have chatted every night for 2 years with them.  But I admit that for some people it may be much better for them to meet only one person when they plan a trip to do so.



This discussion is about whether or not it is best to travel halfway around the world and meet only one potential lifemate, or meet several.  The assumption is that in either case they are being honest and transparent. Because if some of them are lying, then so are the same percentage of people they are traveling to meet lying, and so are the chances that the one person they are traveling to meet is also lying and may well be meeting another guy tomorrow and another guy on Friday, etc., etc. Each of those guys may have spent their $5,000 on the long odds that she will be their one. She spends nothing and rejects man after man as she hosts one each week. Does this seem fair and reasonable? Not to me.



There is no right way to deal with the lying except to not do anything you would not do if you knew the other person was lying. If the Chinese women are worried about their self-respect, then whether it is one man who says he is meeting one woman, or one man saying he is meeting 5 women, the only way to protect their self-respect from a liar is to RESPECT themselves. Don't do something you might disrespect yourself for later.



If I was sitting in my home country and a Chinese woman whom I was dating online honored me by asking if she could come and see me when she had travelled all the way to Canada, I would be so pleased that she was coming all this way and was including me as one of the people she wished to meet that I would walk on air for a few days.



I would know there is no way I can expect it to turn into a committed relationship because we haven't even met yet.



I would expect her to meet more men than just me as she toured Canada, because I would not expect her to stay in one place while spending all that money to get here, and I would not expect her to meet only me because if we didn't turn out ot match up she would have wasted so much of her time, her money and maybe even her life.



If, after she arrived, we just hit it off so well that it tore me up to see her leave so soon, I would tell her how I felt and do my best to persuade her to stick with me, but I would respect her decision and hope for the best.



If I found early after she arrived that she was not for me, I would tell her right away and do my best to make her stay in my area a good one, but also encourage her to soon move on to meet someone she had a chance with. There would be no sex in this case, pure and simple.



With regards to all of what I would do, I would expect the Chinese women I came to meet when I came to China to give me the same respect and treat me as I would treat them.



Those who would not agree to this open mulit-meeting approach I already know are not a match for me. They're not right, they're not wrong, they're not good and they're not bad. They just aren't a match for me. I personally think this manner of finding your perfect match disrespects no one, is eminently reasonable and is far more likely to produce a result that is true and has a greater chance of staying true.



If you head over to that foreign land having weeded out several candidates that you felt might actually be the one, and did so on the basis that the probability was in favour of the only one you are going to meet, then every time you are in conflict with that decision down the road, meaning every time you and your life partner are not in sync, you will find yourself thinking of one or more of the discards and wondering what might have been if you had met them. By meeting them in person and ruling them out, you will now be much more sure of your decision and work much harder to make the resulting relationship last.



That's how I see it. I don't expect everyne else to see it that way, but please, don't think you have a righteous claim to high moral ground because you don't agree. I am just as moral and honest and caring of other people as you are, and likely we all claim to be abiding by the Golden Rule.


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Comments
(Showing 1 to 10 of 13) 1 2 More...
#2015-07-29 11:48:40 by Barry1 @Barry1

@johnabbot

Thanks for your well reasoned yet arguably somewhat flawed thoughts, John.

You referred to Peter's blog, where this discussion originated. I know many people reading this article due to time constraints in their busy lives won't bother to read Peter's blog however. Please indulge me if I transfer the salient points I raised there, directly into this article.

I'm also cognisant that lengthy comments such as this one here are often skimmed through by impatient readers who at the end of the comment, have failed to grasp only half of what was written, assuming they haven't fallen asleep altogether. This though is just a fact of life that can't be changed. My general observation is that any comment longer than about four or five paragraphs alarmingly strains the attention span of many people!

Thus I'm writing here in the knowledge that at least half the people who start reading it, won't finish it. (giggle)

In any case John, to recap, you said:

"Tina.... seems from your description to be confident and independent, so why did she need saving from rejection but you did not? Did you feel that as a man you are stronger and more capable of handling the rejection than she is as a female?"

The answer here is three fold.

1. I'm a believer in fate, more or less according to Buddhist principles. So in my mind, I reasoned that if Tina and I were to be together, it wouldn't matter if she saw one person or twenty. What will be, will be. I figured that the choice of her partner was already made, if one was able to look deeply enough.

2. I'm also not particularly jealous. If the lady that I'm with wants to befriend and chat to other men, then so be it. I can't see anything wrong with this

3. I also am confident in my own skin. I felt reasonably secure that my personality and overall demeanour would win her over. And you know what? It did!

As for the other points you raised in your comments, John, they were all fine. For you as an individual. There's no real right or wrong here. No inherently correct answer and none that are incorrect, as far as this relationship area is concerned.

All men are different. All ladies are different. So your approach is just as valid as anyone else. Each according to their own conscience, mind-set and ability.

Thus this whole topic is inherently difficult to deal with. It's akin to trying to grasp a greasy pig, that keeps slithering out of your hands. Simply because there's no clearly right or wrong answer to the question of how many ladies should a Western man meet if he travels to China.


In addition to the points raised above, I also referred to what @nekko had previously said:

"I could not imagine going and do a shop around for the most suitable woman. I guess I did that on QQ."

This is quite right. QQ or Skype is where we should do our shopping, in my view. Engaging in multiple on-camera talks with different ladies, slowly whittling them down to THE ONE, who we then go over to see in person.

There's also another point:

"Treat people as you yourself would like to be treated".

I inherently understand that were I a Chinese lady who'd been speaking for many weeks or perhaps months to a Western man, I'd far prefer to know that the man if he visited China, would only visit one person - me. This is indeed how I would like to be treated, like a very special person.

Further, I'd expect the man to have already done his homework, that is, to have performed a rigorous selection process BEFORE he came to China. I'd accept that the man should speak to multiple ladies over the internet, before slowly discarding the incompatible dross and driftwood.

Sure, some people may say, "Oh, there's a lack of self-confidence here" or whatever, but I prefer to think that ladies in this position should have more SELF RESPECT than to allow a man to visit multiple ladies on the one journey, blithely flitting from one lady to another.

There are several extraneous issues involved also, such as how can one lady be sure the man didn't have sex with the previous lady? Are all men one hundred per cent honest and do they all act with comprehensive integrity all the time? The answers here are a resounding NO.

As you suggested John, you've been surprised by the online behaviour of people on CLM, who appear quite openly to be misleading the other person to whom they're communicating. I feel it an absurd notion that many men if visiting several ladies on the one trip wouldn't weaken and sex with one or more of them, if the opportunity arose. Many people are weaker in character than you or I.

Imagine if you were a lovely Chinese lady. Would you like to meet a potential new spouse who'd just copulated with another lady, the very previous night that you first met him? There's no way many men would be open and honest, if it had occurred.

Further, @Anniehow then said,

"many women already consider herself and the guy an item after months of chatting every day, no matter how naive that sounds like. No matter how confident a woman is, the fact that you are coming for more than one devalues the visit...."

I think we both agree that Anniehow is one of CLM's brightest lights. Her abundant intelligence, wit and wisdom can't be denied. So for someone possessing this well above average credibility to express this sensible viewpoint clearly is a irrefutable pointer towards its truth for many people.

By the way, John, you also said:

"If you head over to that foreign land having weeded out several candidates that you felt might actually be the one..... then every time you are in conflict with that decision down the road, meaning every time you and your life partner are not in sync, you will find yourself thinking of one or more of the discards and wondering what might have been...."

I refute this idea absolutely. If a man chooses to be with a special lady, then ninety-nine per cent of decent men would commit himself to this person. To think that much later on, he would be ruefully reflecting back on possible other choices that he had rejected, is just plain wrong to me. Only a very superficial, lightweight sort of person would do this, in my view.


Enough of this long winded diatribe.

There are many other points you've raised John that I could expand upon, gleefully highlighting the abundant flaws in your seemingly reasonable albeit somewhat incorrect arguments, but enough is enough. Even the speed readers amongst us here would now be getting tired of this lengthy comment. Everyone else would be asleep. (whew)

The bottom line issues to me concern SELF RESPECT and DIGNITY.

I believe that many Chinese ladies quite rightly would feel somewhat devalued, if they knew a Western man would be meeting several ladies on the one trip. Of course, many other ladies wouldn't have a problem with this.

So who's right and who's wrong?

Once again, this is the problem. There is no real right or wrong answer here. Each according to their conscience and way of thinking. It may depend perhaps also on what the Chinese ladies themselves say, that quite legitimately, could in some circumstances be the determining factor.

#2015-07-30 15:57:06 by melcyan @melcyan

@Anniehow
@JohnAbbot

Congratulations Annie for making it very clear about what you want from a future partner. You seem to have stirred up John. I enjoyed reading your words and I can assure you that I felt in no way insulted by any of your words. Maybe you should have only talked about you and you would not have got the response you did from John. I also suspect that the last half of his response to you morphed into a response meant for Barry. I have taken the liberty of rewriting your words so that John gets your message.
…..........................................................................................................................................
What my future partner needs to know about me.

For me sincerity and how genuine he is, are crucial. Long distance dating across oceans has totally different dynamics from local dating. It would be totally fine if a guy is seeing others as well when we go out for a date in a local area. There is not much emotional attachment, promises and hope except for a few phone calls or text exchanges as well as picture exchange. 

In a long distance and cross ocean setting, the communication before a first meet is much longer. Instead of doing the weeding out process face to face, he needs to do the weeding out online before he comes to see me. I need to see that I guy is genuine and he really gets me. Sorry this is just the way I am wired and I am sure that I am not alone with this view. If the guy does not invest himself 100% in a first visit, I am not going to trust and invest a lot in a devalued courtship. That is shooting yourself in the foot. 

My potential partner needs to be discerning enough to know what he wants and what he does not want. He and I needs to be honest with other about our relationship history, financial situation, values on life, and expectations to decide whether we are compatible and worth a face to face to meet. Therefore I agree that questionnaire is a great tool, provided both parties are honest and sincere. 

As you can tell, my slogan is Do Your Homework and Meet Only Me
…..........................................................................................................................................


John your words about what works for you were also very welcome. Two very different viewpoints and both valuable.
I am sure that men who want a woman like Annie and women who want a man like John now have a better idea on how to proceed.

I have one final comment. Bad men and women are always found on any dating scene. There is no point in trying to quantify what percentage are bad. You only need to match with one person to be successful. It is every dater's responsibility whether local, online or international to protect themselves. Saying you want a good man or good woman on your profile is not enough. You have to do the work. It is inevitable that you will have to get through a lot of unsuitable prospects (some even fraudulent) before you find your match.

#2015-07-31 10:35:32 by JohnAbbot @JohnAbbot

@Barry1
@melcyan
@Anniehow

I will keep this short this time (short for me anyway):

Barry - Repeatedly telling someone their argument or thoughts are flawed does not actually prove them to be flawed. You need to provide some counter-argument and supportive evidence to achieve that. I'm just saying... (wasntme)

To all of you:

My biggest concern with the whole only meet one person argument, is the phone calls over time I have received from male members who are CLM members, or members of competitor sites, and are calling me from a hotel near an airport in some city in China, extremely distraught, because the one woman they came to China to meet, and fully intending to eventually marry, didn't show up at the airport to meet them as promised, isn't answering her phone, and it has now been a day or two without a response on QQ or a returned email. Needless to say their hearts are shattered.

Those guys have chatted with their woman every night for months (sometimes years), have come to believe 100% in her goodness, her kindness and her faithfulness and that she is "the one". They believe they have really done their homework, and they do not wish to be with anyone but her. But it turns out that she is not only not the one, but she is not even really who she said she was, and is not in fact even a decent enough human being to have been up front and saved him the trip.

And while we can’t check on the women on competitor sites we can check on ours, and because we owe a duty of confidentiality, I can’t tell the men what I am about to reveal here about their specific "love match", but I can tell you now, since I am not revealing anyone’s identity. Frequently, not always, but more often than not, the woman he has come to meet and someday marry, has been busy keeping multiple men on the hook, telling the same sweet story to all of them. In one case we could calculate that while he was in flight to China, rushing to be with her and counting the hours to their magic moment, she was sending out a bunch of kisses to new men, with the message that she thought each of them “could be the one”.

When these things have happened, I have been left wondering, what am I doing here? Does it make me angry. Yes it does. Does it cause me to believe that nobody should come here thinking it is a done deal and counting on one single person to become their true love. Yes it does.

I am not saying that members should spend years keeping multiple ladies on the hook and meeting them all after all that time, I am saying they should meet some great ladies on the site, be up front with them and get to know them for a few months, and then come over and meet them. That should happen before there is any talk of love, before there is anybody under the impression that there is a committed relationship and before too much time, energy and emotion is invested on either side.

Barry, it is easy to say you were right because you were fortunate and Tina turned out to be who she seemed to be online. Tina is genuine, honest and real. Good for you. But how would you have felt if you’d been left standing alone in an airport, totally deceived. Good liars can trick people up front and to their face, imagine how easy it is for a good liar to deceive you over video chat.

Anniehow, I am in no way angry with you. You’re a great person and you have a great heart. If I were single and 30 years younger, you would definitely be on my shortlist of ladies to meet on my first trip to China. And I, as it turns out, would be off yours, much to my disappointment. :(

I am just so frustrated by the failure of so many Chinese women to recognize and accept that they are all human beings too, and that like all other human beings, among them there are some very selfish, heartless, nasty people. This is simply unfair, to think of one group of people (Western men) as being so overrun with villains and another group (Chinese women) to be so incredibly virtuous. The statistics that I see suggest there are a roughly equal number of evil persons in each group.

I would like you and other Chinese women to consider that when you start talking about the right to self-respect. Those men were left in a state of having their hearts shattered and their sense of self-worth decimated, and those were the good ones, the ones who were following the rules that so many Chinese women insist on. Those were the only men who you would have been prepared to meet. Well you won’t be meeting them now. Because they will never trust a Chinese woman again.

Had each of them come with a plan to meet several Chinese women, and one had let him down like that, he would have met several more who would have demonstrated that Chinese women are generally great women, and because he came long before he (or they) were “in love”, it could have all been handled lightly and with honor. Nobody would have to feel pressured to go to bed, because the relationships would not have advanced that far yet. Nobody would need to lose their self-respect because they are meeting before a commitment of any kind is made, and they are basically just friends.

One final thought I have about people who think they have lost their self-respect because they chose to go to bed with someone for any reason other than their own desire to do so. They are wrong, they have not “lost” their self-respect. They have given it away.

Melcyan – the primary difference between your thinking and mine is that as far as I am concerned the homework is not done until the physical meeting has taken place, and that part of the homework should take place early enough in the homework stage that the real work of building a lifelong relationship can begin afterwards in a place where both parties have experienced each other in the real world, not just in the cyber world, where nothing is certain and so often things are not what they seem.

#2015-07-31 16:30:19 by melcyan @melcyan

John, I am impressed by your most recent comment on this blog. You genuinely desire the best outcomes for CLM members. I don't know your personal experience of online dating but here is a comment that I have made on a forum thread previously about my experience.

…..........................................................................................................................................

You need to remember that a relationship cannot really start until you meet in person.

I have had only one online relationship (not my current and forever partner) and that took place many years ago. Finding your right match online is very difficult. The misrepresentations or mismatch of some women I could pick fairly quickly. The lies or mismatch of others I could only pick after meeting them in person.

For most of the time that I was a sole parent I did not date. I used only one Australian dating site to observe men and women for many years without contacting anyone (my profile was hidden). This was not just a late at night passing of time hobby, it also turned out to be important preparation for my future.

By the time my children were old enough for me to date I had developed the ability to read online men and women very well. I saw new people start, disappear and start again. I saw people with more than one profile. I saw people repeat the same mistakes.

When I was finally ready fully participate in choosing a partner online I knew I had to write a very clear profile, choose my photos with care and read prospective partner's profiles and emails with great care. I exchanged emails with over 30 women, met 10 women in person in and it was the tenth person I met that I chose as a match. That match ended 18 months later.

The irony was that at that time of that relationship ending I had known my current and forever partner for nearly 3 years and had not considered her as a life partner because she was Chinese and I was Caucasian. Two important people in my life dying in a short space of time made me re-examine and question all that I thought was important in life. After I moved a step closer to my current and forever partner it became impossible to take a step back.
…..........................................................................................................................................

The online dating experience described took place in 2009. What if I had used CLM at that time instead of the Australian dating site and for some reason I had decided my future life partner would be Chinese?

I probably would have contacted at least 30 women on CLM. Maybe conversations would have continued with 5 of them longer than a month. However one of them stood out from the rest. Let's say she was very similar to Anniehow but 20 years older. We seemed to share similar values and goals in life. We had a similar family history and similar ideas on conflict resolution. This one seemed so much better suited to me than the others. What do I do next?

What if everything that seems so real in our communications turns out to be an illusion, just wishful thinking on my part? I then decide that I will visit China for one month. I will see her at the beginning of the trip. If it is real we will stay in her town or travel together for a month.

If it is not to be, then what? I have always wanted to see Beijing, Shanghai and Xian. I will see those cities and maybe meet some of the women that I have met online for a coffee. It seems similar to the online dating experience in Australia but in the reverse order.

Maybe this is an alternative to Barry's plan A and John's plan B.

My plan C is to set out to meet one only but be ready to change it into sight seeing and meeting online friends on the trip, if I have to.

My previously made forum thread comment started with -

“You need to remember that a relationship cannot really start until you meet in person.”

While I believe that statement to be true it does not automatically imply that setting out from the start to meet several prospects on your visit to China is the best way to go.

#2015-08-01 01:36:33 by kalzorch @kalzorch

To me it comes down to the question of serial or parallel. You could spend months finding the "right" partner, then further months or even years chatting online, and then go to China only to find out that the relationship just doesn't jell, or she's been cheating. So then you start all over again. Each cycle probably (should) take at least a year, not to mention thousands of dollars. Who has the time and money for that? The parallel approach, as John suggests, seems more practical.

This is because internet dating is different than in the real world. First, you have a much wider selection of candidates, with new ones coming all the time. This makes it very tempting to hold out for a "better" one. Second, there's a lot that you miss by not meeting in person. Believe it or not, recent studies have shown that women can literally smell whether a man is compatible or not. You could chat for years, and then at the first meeting she realizes that you literally just don't smell right. Men are very keen on how the woman looks, and we all know that photos and videos can be so arranged as to hide the defects that would quickly be obvious in real life. For a woman it is important to know how a man *acts*, and this is only possible to observe in real life. Third, it is much easier to cheat on the internet. As John pointed out, this also happens, a lot.

For all these reasons, the chances that the meeting will go according to plan/wishes is considerably less than 100%. To pull a number out of the air, let's say that the chances of success are 25%. In this case a man using the serial (one after another) approach will (on average) invest probably at least 5 years of his life, a month of vacation, maybe 16000 dollars, and 3 broken hearts. The man who does it in parallel will invest a couple years of chatting, two weeks of vacation, maybe 5000 dollars, and several disappointments. Of course the serial man could succeed on the first try, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his approach is better, only that he was lucky.

The parallel approach also implies less commitment to candidates before the first meeting. Since you'll be seeing several, there's less need to qualify each one in excruciating detail before arranging the meeting. Thus there will be less time to wait, and less emotional investment. Instead of The Candidate being your one chance of happiness, each of the candidates will be a good possibility, someone you'll be proud to call a friend (assuming she isn't cheating on you). Most importantly, your chances of ultimate success are much higher.

Women, of course, often don't like the idea that you're talking to other women at the same time. Women tend to make a much bigger emotional investment in a relationship than men. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that the serial approach is just not practical on the internet.

#2015-08-01 05:52:47 by kalzorch @kalzorch

@JohnAbbot
Slightly off-topic, perhaps in your reconstruction of the site you want to consider some mechanism for building a reputation, or at least reporting the kinds of bad actors that you described. After a few seconds thought, I see two possibilities: reputation, or just complaints. The reputation could be based on some automatic things such as length of membership, communications count, responsiveness to communications, VIP count, blog/forum participation, time spent reading profiles. These metrics could be designed to encourage active members who (for example) actually look at the profiles of members who send them a kiss/message, and actually read the message. It could also be based on feedback from other members, which could of course be tricky to implement fairly. Complaints would be limited to bad actions that you have observed and complaints from other members. If feedback from other members is allowed, then there would have to be some way to clear one's record, and some way to adjudicate disputes.

In any case this would have to be done carefully, minimizing the possibility of people gaming the system to inflate their reputations.

I have heard horrendous stories, on this and other sites, about people who went through extended conversations with another member, only to discover that the other person was only jerking them around. No doubt you know of many more such stories. Just intuitively, there ought to be some way to warn others of these bad apples.

#2015-08-01 11:45:18 by Barry1 @Barry1

@JohnAbbot

"Barry - Repeatedly telling someone their argument or thoughts are flawed does not actually prove them to be flawed."

I don't know so much, John. I find it kinda fun, telling someone that everything they say is dead set incorrect and wrong. You should try this sometime, it's quite a liberating and fun feeling. I'll have to do this more often, I think! (dance)

On a more serious note, much as I'd like to continue this topic, I'm all talked out on it.

Whilst conceding that everything you've said is quite reasonable and in many ways spot on the money John, it's a topic where really there's no right or wrong answer. Akin to trying to catch a greasy pig with oil smeared fingers. Some people will feel comfortable only meeting one lady on their journey; others will have no problem meeting several. It's an individual choice, I think.

So on that note, I'll shut up on this subject and leave the discussion to those more learned and knowledgeable than I, which won't be at all difficult. :x:x:x

#2015-08-01 19:44:56 by Anniehow @Anniehow

John, I understand where you are coming from better now after your explanation. It is valid and understandable if men take that type of approach given that not all matches are trustworthy and you’d better make the best use of plane tickets since they are so expensive. It is fine provided it is mutually accepted and not much emotions or attachment and false hope involved.

I did a random poll on the Chinese forum section from the ladies and I think it might provide some food for thought for Western guys. At the very least, it will help Western guys know how a group of Chinese ladies think about this issue.

The common mentality among the ladies is that multi-meeters are either not serious enough or the relationship is not deep enough. A few said they wouldn’t consider meeting such a guy. Some said it is okay to meet them as friends but will not take it very seriously. One lady said something very interesting regarding different strategies according to different stages. If you communicate for about 2 months (without a lot of emotional attachment) then the multi-meet approach is fine but if you have communicated much longer there is already emotional attachment (and even promises) after everyday video chat, multi-meet may not be so appropriate. I tend to agree with this lady. So John, a 20 years younger you still have a chance. ;)

Our home-made culture master Gareth once said “If a Chinese lady decides to meet you, then she is pretty serious about a relationship with you.” (we are excluding the liars and manipulators). And in China a relationship (especially for a divorcee in her 40s or a single lady in her 30s) always points directly to marriage in a shorter time frame than for a lady in her 20s. My take is that first meet (and second or third meet) carries a lot more weight for Chinese ladies who are seriously looking for a marriage partner (I am talking about cross-continent setting, expensive plane tickets are also an important factor). If the first meet goes well, they might get engaged on the second meet or the third and check the list of meeting family members, buying nice gifts and plans to apply for a fiancé visa and wedding plans etc. Not everybody is the same but it is not uncommon many women got engaged on the second or third meet. There is a lot of emotional investment and expectations which make ladies want an “exclusive” visit.

If the guy is not ready or do not have the “conviction” to meet one, make sure both parties know where they stand and it will avoid some unpleasant surprises or ugly fights in a foreign country.

I realized that we (Chinese ladies on the forum and blogs) read more about women’s failed attempts to meet a guy (or negative experiences meeting the guy who multi-date or the lady went all the way to meet the guy in his country) than the other way around. Maybe because guys are too concerned with their pride to talk about it in a forum or blog or they have some secret forum where they share. What we hear from the ladies about guys having multi-meets mostly did not end well. On the other hand, most of the success stories come from ladies whose guys make the trip for the lady alone. It might have tilted the preferences.

That type of behavior of manipulating and lying should be condemned, whether it is done by a Chinese or a Westerner. It is a serious character issue and I wish there was a Yelp system for such a man or woman so that we know who not to contact!

#2015-08-01 21:24:40 by kalzorch @kalzorch

@JohnAbbot
Slightly off-topic, perhaps in your reconstruction of the site you want to consider some mechanism for building a reputation, or at least reporting the kinds of bad actors that you described. After a few seconds thought, I see two possibilities: reputation, or just complaints. The reputation could be based on some automatic things such as length of membership, communications count, responsiveness to communications, VIP count, blog/forum participation, time spent reading profiles. These metrics could be designed to encourage active members who (for example) actually look at the profiles of members who send them a kiss/message, and actually read the message. It could also be based on feedback from other members, which could of course be tricky to implement fairly. Complaints would be limited to bad actions that you have observed and complaints from other members. If feedback from other members is allowed, then there would have to be some way to clear one's record, and some way to adjudicate disputes.

In any case this would have to be done carefully, minimizing the possibility of people gaming the system to inflate their reputations.

I have heard horrendous stories, on this and other sites, about people who went through extended conversations with another member, only to discover that the other person was only jerking them around. No doubt you know of many more such stories. Just intuitively, there ought to be some way to warn others of these bad apples.

#2015-08-02 14:42:14 by melcyan @melcyan

@JohnAbbot
For obvious reasons, I have never really thought about how I would choose a Chinese lady from CLM to meet, how I would meet her and what I would do if the meeting did not lead anywhere.
After reading Anniehow's last comment I feel even more strongly that my plan C idea mentioned in my previous comment is a sound way to go. I am interested in your thoughts on my plan C approach.

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