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John Abbot is co-owner of Married to a lovely Chinese Lady and living in China, John knows and respects China, Chinese Women, Chinese People and Chinese Culture. His blog will include good stuff about Online Dating, Chinese Women, International Relationships and Things Chinese. Join John Abbot on Google+
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Game Player Prison – Impossible!    

By John Abbot
2974 Views | 3 Comments | 5/20/2010 11:37:55 PM

Jasmine appears to be intent on proposing that CLM introduce a Game Player Prison to accompany Scammer Prison. Now before we just casually write off this suggestion, let me say that we don’t take anything Jasmine suggests lightly. Jasmine is a smart lady, a very smart lady, and we highly respect her opinions. Having said that, let me say that we long ago, at the time we introduced Scammer Prison, considered also having a Game Player Prison, and we concluded then that a Game Player Prison is not only practically impossible, but even more importantly is philosophically wrong!

If you haven’t already done so, you should read Jasmine’s blog post Game Players’ Prison Also? Part 1: clinical experiences (1) before reading this post. Jasmine is aware that I am taking this position and she’ll be able to hit back with her next blog so don’t feel sorry for her. As feisty and independent as Jasmine is, it’s me you should be taking pity on.

We understand Jasmine’s frustration with the men she meets online who are not (or appear to be not) sincerely interested in a long term relationship. We empathize with that frustration since, as we are an international online dating site that is focused on people who are sincerely interested in long term relationships, and those who are not so interested are wasting their time and ours on this site.

Having said that, my intention is to follow Jasmine’s coming series of blogs and to provide our own counter discussion to her points, explain where we think she’s mistaken and why, and ultimately (unless she has persuaded me otherwise), indicate why there will be no Game Player Prison on CLM.

You readers can also, of course, toss in your thoughts on the matter. If nothing else, it should be interesting reading.

So, referring now to Jasmine’s blog “Game Players’ Prison Also? Part 1: clinical experiences (1)” my response is as follows:

1. Jasmine sets out a long letter she received from a member, and indicates that, except for one part where he describes his penis in far too much detail and another part asking for a message from her, the letter is identical to his profile. In the letter (and apparently in his profile) he indicates a strong liking for oral sex.

Our comment:

Do we like and admire the fellow who wrote this? No! Would we have written something like this in an opening letter or our profile? No! To us this is rather tasteless in several ways, not least of which is the obvious conceit.

But is this person a Game Player? Emphatically not! By definition a Game Player is someone who is playing games. That implies deceit or trickery – it suggest that he is simply trying to persuade women to believe he is serious about a long term relationship when all he really wants is a series of sexual conquests as he moves from one woman to the next. But where is the trickery in this? He couldn’t be more up front and open about what he is looking for.

He likes oral sex and he wants a woman who does too. While we would not have broadcast it in our profile nor in our first letter, there is something strategically correct about doing so, and that is the point of not wasting his own time and not wasting the time of the women reading his profile or letter, because if they don’t like oral sex he isn’t interested in them. By indicating this in his profile and letter he is doing what we actually recommend that online daters do – clearly state the things that are important to them.

Unlike most Chinese women, for most Western men sexual compatibility is a very important feature of a long term relationship. It isn’t likely #1 on every Western guy's list, but it is likely in the top 5 for most of us. This guy, due to his tastelessness, has likely eliminated a lot of potential mates including many who do like oral sex but do not care for this presentation. However, due to his honesty he has also no doubt eliminated all the women who do not like oral sex, which was a legitimate goal.

So, would Jasmine have us place him in Game Player Prison for having bad taste?

2. Jasmine provides a list of Red Alarms that apparently alerted her to this guy being a “Game Player”. For brevity I am not including her comments here so I suggest that you open her blog and read along as you read our comments below:

Red alarm #1: So the guy is redundant and boring. Most of us (both Western men and Chinese women) are. Should we all go to prison for that?

Red alarm #2: Yes we know what he is after, which means he is not a game player at all. If you don’t like what he is after don’t respond. That’s what online dating is all about.

The funny thing is that members are rated as hot by our system based entirely on how many clicks their profile receives. Period. Nothing else. So if this guy is rated as hottest it is because lots of ladies are clicking on his picture in search or browse, and lots of ladies are responding to his messages in their inbox by clicking on his profile to read more about him. And the latter suggests that unlike Jasmine, there are ladies on the website who do not find his messages distasteful and want to know more. Maybe they really like oral sex and also consider it an important part of a long term relationship, maybe they are super attracted to a large penis – we don’t know. But neither is it our place to dictate to members what they should or should not find attractive. To each his own.

Jasmine refers to not understanding why women “would jump into” this guy’s “trap”? But our response to that is “What trap?”

Jasmine also takes offense to “copy and paste” tactics and we don’t like them much ourselves. It does seem to us to be just too impersonal. However, in itself it hardly seems grounds to send someone to prison.

Red alarm #3: Some people have sweet mouths. Especially Chinese women. Are we going to imprison people for being overly sweet and flattering, for being tastelessly intimate too soon in the game. Because Jasmine does not communicate with the women on CLM she is likely unaware of how quickly they start calling the men “baby” and even “husband”. But does that call for a sentence in prison?

Red alarm #4: We do strongly suggest that you stay on CLM for initial messaging and chat because it makes it far easier for us to investigate someone who you complain about, and it means people don’t have your personal contact info until you feel safe giving it to them. This is part of our Scammer control system. However, just to enlighten you all, far more Western men complain about being pushed by the Chinese ladies for instant off site contact than the opposite. I would venture to guess that well over 50% of the ladies provide their email address in their initial on site message. That would be a lot of members to send to Game Player Prison!

Red alarm #5: Lots of members (Western men and Chinese women) try a 1 month membership first. This is not an indication of their insincerity, it is their way of testing CLM’s sincerity and the sincerity of the other members, and we have no problem with that. Nothing can be read into this other than people’s right to not wish to blow their hard earned money until they are comfortable with the website and with the other members on the website.

We are far more concerned about the members who join as free members and communicate exclusively with hundreds of pay members – how serious are they? Are they really Scammers looking for victims? But again, is it proof of game playing?

There seems nothing wrong with asking if you accept the other person’s culture because there is no sense wasting each others time if you don't. Aren't the Chinese women almost all pointedly seeking someone who accepts Chinese culture? Isn’t this the opposite of “playing games”?

Red alarm #6: See comments regarding red alarm #3.

Red alarm #7: To us, deciding when you would like to meet is entirely a matter of personal preference. If you don’t wish to meet as soon as he wishes to, simply tell him that and explain why. If he takes offense or doesn’t acknowledge your feelings then he's not very sensitive to your needs and you should move on to the next person. Again, this is what online dating is about - meeting lots of people and out of them all finding the one we are most compatible with.

Red alarm #8: If someone makes this offer they are now suspect of being Scammers and should be reported as such. In the first case they sound like a possible “agent” and in the second case there is clearly money being offered and usually that will lead to money being asked for. Please report this behavior so we can investigate them.

However, other than the fears of a Scammer I suggest that someone who has made either of these suggestions is both completely tasteless and has clearly lost all interest in you as a potential lifemate, and the answer to that is simply to drop him like the slimeball he apparently is and move on to the next person – again, this is what online dating is all about.

Red alarm #9: I’m a little confused as to where “the 4th” clinical experience falls in but I am assuming it is in reference to red alarm #9. While I can see where jasmine is concerned that the question “Do you live with your parents?” is aimed at the issue of whether or not sex will be possible, I think it far more likely that it’s aimed at the fact that Western men do not take easily to the concept that is very much the norm in China that “when you marry the woman you marry the family”. If I was a Chinese woman I’d be more concerned that the guy is not very open to my culture. But either way, if you don’t like people who ask questions that are “too personal - too soon” for you, then you won’t be a good match so don’t respond other than a polite rejection and move on.

If you’re not interested in a “sexy doctor” who “uses webcam” (and in my mind, who would be interested in this guy – but I guarantee that some women will be) then move on and leave him for those who are interested.

Red alarm #10: I personally am not a webcam guy. If I was still online dating, like Jasmine I’d far prefer not to bother with it until I am already sure I’m interested in someone in a fairly deep way. However, when you are online dating you have a duty to yourself to ask for a webcam chat as early as possible to ensure the person is real. If someone asked me for a chat I’d say they are sensible and cautious and I’d accommodate them, because I personally respect sensible cautious people and that’s the type of person I’d be interested in. My Chinese wife is sensible and cautious, yet she has a really fun and wild side that can come out when a good comfort level is reached. However, if I was a woman I would advise them of my discomfort and that I was only accommodating them out of respect for their concerns for security. If, once you’re on that first webcam chat, the guy then starts asking you to do something that is improper or distasteful, tell him to “take a hike” (or other things I can’t print here) and then click the chat off and don’t bother with him again. Move on to the next person.

Jasmine indicates more is coming so I’ll stop here, except to say this: at CLM we do not feel we can impose personal taste on anyone. That is the opposite of what online dating is all about. Online dating, even the long term relationship kind, is about having the ability to search the entire world for the person who is right for you. Not the person who is right for John Abbot, not the person who is right for some CLM employee and not the person who is right for Jasmine. Someone who is a “game player” to one of us maybe the perfect match to another.

That is where I’ll be coming from when we move on through this process. Meanwhile feel free to comment either here or on Jasmine’s blog or both.

Copyright owned jointly by Author and CyberCupid Co., Ltd. Breach of copyright will be prosecuted.
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#2010-05-21 19:32:03 by dearjasmine @dearjasmine

'Treat others as you'd like to be treated" Patience, respect, humor, this is serious!...' This was what he put. What is serious now? I have to say he did have the good presentation in the beginning of his mail. And if he did not put those Q&A in his profile and mail, I almost believed in him.
John, you got me wrong with Red alarm #9. Those were just 2 questions, but if you've got the context, and just don't put your attention on the 1st question. As soon as I said I am living alone, he asked whether I was at home and what I was wearing. Think about it...In the 1st chat(before that no mail contacts) and he apparently was more concerned about what I was wearing.

#2010-05-22 22:27:45 by JohnAbbot @JohnAbbot

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you". I'm not a Christian (although my parents are) but I do think that's the greatest single rule that humankind can live by. However, in his own way this clown did not break that rule. He wrote to you as he would have you write to him. It was foolish and presumptuous of him to assume you would want to be written to that way just because he wants to be, but people are foolish. How can we prohibit foolishness? Sorry I misunderstood Red alarm #9, and given that specific context he was no doubt leading up to sexual questions and talk, but to me that still is not "game playing". Rude on the first chat, absolutely, but game playing, no. In my next blog I'll talk about what members can do about rude obnoxious types, and how maybe CLM can assist.

#2010-06-02 12:44:50 by sylvan @sylvan

I agree with what you said here. While the guy is clearly shallow and tasteless, he hasn't demonstrated any intention of trickery or deception, which is what defines a game player. Personally, I would like to see these types of people removed from society, not just CLM. Unfortunately, there usually isn't much that can be done about them.

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